When I first began fertility treatments, I was intrigued by Chinese medicine - mostly because I hated the emotional and physical pain and the frustration surrounding Western treatments. Through RE#1, I was introduced to my TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) practitioner. She was kind, helpful and thorough. She cared about my whole body health. I counted myself lucky when any of my Western doctors managed to get even one of those right. However, I didn't have the money to continue with the program, and I was also getting very impatient. Lots of things happened between changing RE's and the mixing of Eastern and Western medicine that caused me to give up TCM at the time.
When she sensed she was losing me, Dr. L. started to get very worried. She felt I was very out of balance and that Western medicine alone would not do the trick. She stated the belief that it was unlikely I would conceive, but that if I did, it probably would not be viable for long. Here I am, a year later, lots of dollars more broke, emotionally exhausted, and that's exactly what happened. Last cycle, it's doubtful that I ovulated, but at least AF came at a normal time. I am currently on cycle day 41 with no ovulation or AF in sight, my anxiety is getting worse again, and I feel "out of balance" like I did before. My Western medicine doctors (including my wonderful endo) are all at a loss. Every one of them had previously stated that I should be pregnant (successfully) in no time and that I was in prime health other than my few "small" problems. My Hashimoto's wasn't terrible they said, and my PCOS was mild if even a full syndrome. At some point though, when nothing works, almost every doctor seems to lose faith in their ability to "fix" my problems and gives up on me. The next logical move to them is IVF. But why would that be any different when they are all continually confounded by this seemingly "mostly healthy" specimen's inability to even ovulate correctly? I'm glad I went to Western medicine long enough to get my diagnoses and treatment for hypothyroid. But why is there suddenly another brick wall in my way? The answer seems simple to me. They're missing something. Is this a something that TCM could help?
So now we come to my conundrum and your part in it. I have lost that dreamy, happy, "free of treatments" dreamworld. I relaxed. I found myself again. Now I'm ready to give it another go. Hubs and I had some serious talks about what we want. I think he's ready for adoption only if I'm ready for it. And we both concluded that I am not ready yet. I need to see this through. I desperately want to grow a child in my womb, and I'm pretty sure DH really wants to be a part of that process as well. Therefore, we must make a decision. Do we go back to Western medicine or Eastern?
DH's parents may help us with costs, but even with help, we probably only have one shot at a Western medicine assisted IUI at a time with long breaks in between to build up our financial stores. Furthermore , my last (supremely unsuccessful) IUI was done with Femara, gonal-f and ovidrel. I'm pretty sure RE is going to just want to jump right in where he left off with pushing much more injectibles without finding out why I stopped ovulating on meds and probably strongly arguing the case for IVF. IVF is just not an option for us. It's not. I don't know if I could handle it anyway, but the point is moot since it's so financially out of reach, he may as well try to get us to force flying primates out of our nether regions (to nicely quote a favorite SNL skit).
But - there is the fact that with Western medicine, you know exactly where you stand without the guesswork. And if there is a problem with me killing off all of DH's sperm, as I suspect there is due to the fact that I have such a short period of good, fertile CM, then an IUI takes care of that.
On the flip side, with TCM, I will feel comfortable again. No more miserable side effects. No more needles - not even acupuncture because we could only afford herbs. Maybe Dr. L could figure out why I'm still all "unbalanced" and work to fix it. Maybe I would see some results and a healthier me. Maybe I could get this crap under control and actually get pregnant. Also, the herbs are affordable enough that if she does get me ovulating again, we have multiple cracks at conceiving rather than just one every 5 or 6 months.
The drawback to the TCM is that I have to be patient, and I am really miserable at that. Can I wait it out long enough to even see if it makes a difference to me? I'm also on the fence as to how effective I really believe it is. Sometimes I'm very optimistic about it. Sometimes I believe it's just wishful thinking. And if I spend months and months trying to make it work, that's months more than I've lost. But on the flip side, we're kinda stuck right now anyway due to hitting our insurance limit (oooh 3 IUI's. Thank you ever so much generous corporate entity), and having no cash.
It's obvious that I'm leaning toward the TCM. But every other hour, I second guess my decision and fret about it all over again. Can you weigh in with what you think about my situation? Feel free to deal out the assvice in spades here. Just don't tell me to fix something that I can't, or suggest that maybe God "has a plan for me" ok? Tell me your experiences. Relate that article that you read. Tell me how you think I'll feel. I just need some help here. And believe me, you won't even offend me if you've never even experienced infertility. I'm looking for advice from all corners. (H - I'm thinkin' of you here! Would love input from that big brain of yours!)
Signing off and looking forward to your responses and our ttc journey starting up again.
Monday, July 21, 2008
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this may or maynot be helpful - you know what you are comfortable with, what your bank account can afford and what your heart can/cannot take. I tried eastern and western - our insurance covered neither and I figured Eastern was the cheaper route and I was gung ho about figuring out why i was "broken". After a few Eastern treatments/sessions, I had to stop - it was just too expensive and it was cutting into my backup plan money for IUI's if the eastern appproach didnt work. .. Yes i plan backup plans for my back up plans .... I was tired of trying to figure out why and just wanted to jump into treatments - so we jumped ship - there were too many variables for me -It all overwhelmed me - the Eastern way was not "fast enough" for me .. yes impatient. All said - because you need to do what you feel lead to do. Whatever that may be
I really have no experence with tcm and I have limited experience with western medicine so i guess I am no help here. Is there a way you could do tcm for a few short months and then proceed to iui with any knowledge you have gained from tcm. I don't know if that is a possibility seeing as how I have no expererience. I guess I am just no help period sorry.
*Although I have heard about some people that do iui/ivf in conjunction with eastern medicine and have slightly better results. But since the cash flow could be a problem for both I guess this is out of the question too.
I am not totally sure all what TCM entails, but is accupuncture a part of it? It may be worthwhile to combine western treatment cycles with acupuncture.
As far as IUI cycles, how much are you paying for an injectible cycle and how many do you think you might go through? If they are in the neighhborhood of $1,500-$2000, I think it might be a waste to do them. ivf is generally around 10K. I know that's a LOT of money, but that equals 5 IUI cycles with a lot better odds.
Have you consulted another RE? It might be worth a shot.
One other thought. Is it the carrying of a child you want to experience or the biological connection. If it's the former, you may want to consider embryo adoption/donation. It's considerably less than an ivf cycle.
And I am so sorry you are having to make these choices. It shouldn't have to be this damn hard to have a baby. Especially for someone as great as you.
Since you asked...
;-)
I've been struggling with the same thing (shock, seeing as how we seem to live parallel lives) - whether or not to go back to TCM. I did acu and herbs for about 6 months in conjunction with both natural cycles and 2 IUI's - until I realized how much cash I had dropped.
I ovulate just fine, but my cycles are only 3 weeks instead of 4. All my Western doctors seem to think that is just fine, but my acu was concerned and wanted to get me more "in balance". My periods were less painful while going through acu. It obviously didn't get me pregnant, but I think it helped my overall well-being.
I will be going back to acu for our 3rd and final IVF. I'm just now realizing that I probably need to go a few months BEFORE our last IVF.
All that blah, blah, blah about me is to say that I'd give TCM another try. Talk to your acu and see if you can put some boundaries on it - i.e. you'll do it for 6-9 months or something like that. That way you know how much to plan for. Mine also gave me a discount - on my receipt it said AHSN discount - might be worth asking about. (It brought my $80 sessions down to $50.) Also, do you have a medical flexible spending account through either your job or DH's? I planned for several months of acu and put it in there - that way, it comes out of pre-tax dollars.
It sounds like you are leaning towards TCM anyway. As for the patience thing - if you figure that out, let me know! ;-) I'd go in to it with the idea that you're doing it for your overall health rather than the "I want a baby NOW" thought that seems to creep in on us at every turn.
Sorry this is so long - hope it's helpful.
That's a lot to think about Barb. I'm sorry that it sucks, because it really does.
You know that I'm not a big fan of Eastern medicine, I did not have any success with the acu and herbs. I kinda wonder if it did me a disservice as some of my issues became worse or did not improve during treatment.
But...you are not me and it sounds like you've had some success and it helps you, especially in the mind/body sense which is extremely important. So I sorta vote for using some herbs, maybe just for a few months to see if it can help get your cycle regulated.
I've always been hopeful for you that once your cycle was in check you'd have no problems, as your IF seems to center around hormones.
Maybe trying to modify your diet again, robitussin for CM and herbs could help. I've been thinking of going back to the insanity of the home remedy again, including charting. Ha ha.
You're right that the RE is probably going to go back to the same play book without considering any other options. I've run into the same wall, (also being healthy etc.) and have been frustrated by the limited options available through him.
I wish I could impart some great assvice, but that's all I've got.
Lots of luck and love as you and DH make your decision. Keep us posted!
sigh. what a crossroads.
i can't really offer a suggestion - i can only tell you my personal experience with both - although my experience with Western medicine may not apply to you b/c we did IVF and my diagnosis is different than yours.
i did TCM for 1.5 years. yup. that long. during that time, i had surgery for uterine polyps and we were diagnosed by Western medicine as mild-moderate MFI and possibly low ovarian reserve. while i did TCM, we did 4 IUIs and 1 completed IVF cycle. tally: 5 medicated cycles, 1 chemical pregnancy, then 3 BFNs, then 1 BFP and miscarriage at 7 weeks.
after the miscarriage, i dropped TCM. we did two unsuccessful IUIs, then this past successful IVF. during the IVF cycle i did acupuncture twice - right before and right after transfer on that day. that's it. and 10.5 weeks later, i'm still pregnant.
all of this to say that the only truly successful cycle i've had was largely without TCM. and i had given it 1.5 years.
so, in the end, all of this kind of left me with a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to TCM and infertility. of course, this was just my experience - and we have totally different diagnoses. i did not have a hormonal or thyroid problem - maybe TCM does really help with hormonal imbalances. i just don't know. i'm not sure anybody REALLY does. which is why this makes your decision so difficult.
i have totally not helped you AT ALL, probably, but i wanted to pipe in here. of course, if you choose TCM i will completely understand why and support you unconditionally.
also, i have 2 vials of 900IUs of unopened, refrigerated follistim that i would LOVE to send you if you decide to do IUIs and need drugs. my insurance paid for them, and i would really love for you to use them. they would be enough for 2-3 IUI cycles. email me at LP if you decide you are interested.
love you!!!!
Yeah, that's a really tough one. The only thing I would worry about is that as far as I know, TCM for the most part isn't covered by the FDA, so they aren't required to do all the safety tests and scientific proof that Western treatments are. I would be worried about doing more harm than good somewhere.
Is changing practices a possibility? Maybe a fresh pair of eyes can see something that your other doctors haven't found yet.
And by the way, when I rule the world someday, insurance will cover all this stuff at 100%.
Wow! So much wonderful advice! (not assvice at all! :)
Farah - We seem similar in that area. :) Thanks for your iput. I always value it.
Kathy - I could definitely do tcm first and go back to western. The only problem with me thinking like that is then I tend to get impatient and "jump ship" early. I'm such a goof.
bstbs - acu is part of it, along with herbs, heat therapy and all kinds of other "whole" therapies. I would mainly do herbs though unless we do an iui or an ivf, and then I would ask for acu to support it. I would LOVE to consult another RE, but there are only 2 in this area, and I've consulted them. The first one I really do not like, the second I like, but now that he's flabbergasted by me, he just wants to keep really upping the ante, and I'm not sure that ivf would even work with as wacked out as my body gets. I really do think my problem is mainly hormonal. And IVF at $10,000? I thought it was closer to $20,000? I think an injectible cycle iui would be what you quoted. I was thinking of asking if we could try clomid one more time for an iui though which wouldn't run anymore than about $500. And it's mostly about carrying a child, but right now I'm still attached to the biological aspect too. DH is Filipino/Chinese and I'm German/British. We're both so attached to that and so different and just want to see our child come from that. You know what I mean.
Allison - Thanks! It's very helpful! Now if you could just get pg, maybe I would too since we seem to have to follow each other. ;-) The reason I think it MAY help me is since even changing my diet and traveling seems to affect my cycles. I imagine herbs would too. She just has to get them right I suppose. But she's very good. I agree with doing acu before the IVF. However, much of the research says that even just doing it pre and post transfer is a big boost.
Stephanie - Thanks so much! You do give me some great advice seeing as you know exactly where I'm coming from with the doctor. I like him and all, but it's like after a certain point, he writes you off. And he's SOOO "only scientific based western medicine" that it frustrates me. He won't even discuss dietary issues with me unless I push it! sigh. And yes, I had gotten lax with my diet. I'm trying to get back on the wagon again. And now that Whole Foods is in the neighborhood (even tho it's expensive) WAHOO!
Junior - You were actually a BIG help as I know you know what you're talking about. And the follistim. Wow. I'd be honored. Thanks so much for the offer. xo
Jen - Could you get on that "ruling the world" thing? I don't have years to wait for ya you know! ;-)
Anyway - I wouldn't mind at least getting another opinion, but I don't know who else to go to. Didn't you have an appt with someone else right before you got pregnant? Can you e-mail me who it is? I've tried the 2 that are closest to me. The others are at least an hour or so away, and that's really difficult to do.
My leanings will always be toward tcm and/or naturopathy though I wouldn't write off western med at all.
If I was in your shoes, I'd talk seriously to your TCM practitioner about a contained, achievable, affordable and worthwhile plan and I'd be more concerned with getting lots of acupuncture, rather than herbs, in. Acupuncture has such good results with (in)fertility. Anyway I'd put a realistic time/money limit on it and be trying naturally during that time.
And if that doesn't work I'd probably be inclined to try a couple more IUI's accompanied by acupuncture just once a month (speak to your tcm practitioner about optimal timing.)
And beyond that, I guess you don't have much of a choice other than to muster more patience and start saving the big bucks for IVF.
I'm not in your shoes, however, and I have the benefit of being pregnant and no longer feeling desperate and impatient. You'll make the right decisions Barb - you've been though so much that I doubt your heart and head could let you do anything but what is right for you.
Lots of love and strength coming to you as you decide the next step.
Oh and btw - I think it's very exciting that you're going to start trying again!
Chips - Thanks for the input! The problem with acu is that it's way more expensive than the herbs ($75 a session) and she doesn't give any discounts. I cannot afford enough of that to be effective, and when I asked her which I should choose if money were a problem, she said herbs since I can do it every day.
I'm surprised to hear that. My TCM practitioner would argue for acupuncture until she's blue in the face. Further, she says that for some constitutions, herbs are just too strong for fertility issues. In my case I think she was right.
I have no idea what kind of resources are available to you in your town/city but if you have an highly populated area with a lot of Chinese/Malays etc you may find a glut of traditional, home land, old school TCM practitioners who, in my experience are much much cheaper. They may not give you the soul nurturing that you're used to (us white girls love the touchy, feely stuff, don't we!??), but they do know their shit.
I have two close friends who are TCM practitioners. If you want me to ask more questions, I'm happy to. Not trying to be pushy...I just want to find you a solution!!
I started to read your last post and then saw that it was a follow-up to this post, so I scrolled down and read this one first.
I hate being where you are mentally. I really do. The only advice I have, or rather question, is can you afford to do the TCM while and inbetween IUIs? Perhaps the TCM could help when it comes to do IUIs. I know that when we went the herbal route, we read that it takes three months for the vitamins to make it through to your reproductive system (which never made sense to me). Honestly, I would do both if you can afford it. That way all of your bases are covered and you will have some peace of mind.
Now I am going to read your next post and see if you already made a resolution. lol
HUGS!
Thanks Michelle! My RE doesn't want me to do herbs while doing treatment and I hate not going by his orders. My TCM lady too doesn't seem to be concerned about mixing Western meds and herbs and that worries me.
Thanks for your advice!
Chips! Nice to see you back so much. :) I would LOVE it if you'd ask them more about it. If you'd like to ask them what a Hashi's girl with really mild PCOS (no blood levels out of range except that testosterone and some sugar level is close to the high end of the range) but who still doesn't ovulate on her own well at all should do? I also respond very negatively to ovulation inducing meds in a physical and emotional sense. I've ovulated really well on them generally.
Oh, and my TCM is an old school straight from China gal. She's just expensive b/c she's the best one around and is affiliated with an RE.
I completly understand about the patience thing. It is running thing around here, too.
I don't know much about TCM, but am very curious about it. I am kind of in the same boat as far as being 'unexplained IF.' Hubby's stuff is all good and I ovulate, but not very regularly. I am starting to feel very frustrated and out of balance myself. I can't help but think if you tried TCM even if you didn't get pregnant maybe you would become more balanced and feel better yourself and that can only help if you go back to traditional treatments.
Let me know how it goes!
This is a tough one and it sounds a lot like you're in between a rock and a hard place. The sad part is, that it all costs dedication and money.
We had good insurance for diagnosis and treatment that went as far as 6 medicated IUI cycles, but even with our copays we were thousands of dollars out of pocket. After 6 IUIs (3 medicated and 3 natural) we started looking seriously at IVF, saving money, and trying to rejig our budget and finances to do the IVF when we still had time to conceive. One of the benefits or detriments of infertility treatments, is that it enables a couple to actually watch their fertility decline over a matter of months instead of years. We got on a waiting list for a really good IVF doctor and mad that our timeline for saving the money, hoping all the time that we might succeed with yet, another, IUI. Another 4 IUIs and one surgery later we were at the IVF cycle.
With so much invested, since our insurance covers NOTHING related to IVF, we paid extra to give it everything we had. I did acupuncture and herbs starting a month prior to the cycle, though I had done the TCM approach a lot over the past year, I had taken a 2 month break prior to starting up again, in an effort to save some money so I could put all the focus on our IVF cycle. I did acupuncture twice a week through the cycle and for a month after the BFP, just in case.
It all really was more than we thought we could afford, and we're still paying back the home equity we used, but we will never regret it.
That's my story, and I don't know if it helps. I know that we are very fortunate that we were able to come up with the funds with a mere 7 month's notice. In a lot of cases, time is of the essence and we need to get more aggressive sooner rather than later, when other approaches don't work.
If you do proceed with IVF, it's very worth it to give it the "kitchen sink approach," meaning doing everything possible that can help, even if it adds to the financial burden. TCM on top of IVF, I believe, can seriously help. When spending $12-15 thousand dollars for an IVF cycle, a few hundred extra for TCM is a drop in the bucket.
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